Ep. 62: Managing Employees, What You Need To Know Before You Get Burned, With Paul and Tussanee Leubbers from Lash Cast Podcast and Formerly Integrity Lash
Making the shift from a solo practice where you're doing all of the artistry to hiring employees where you become more of a manager can be huge for your business. It's a lot of responsibility to take on and there's a lot you have to learn to make sure you don't burn out.
Tussanee and Paul Leubbers ran their business, Lash Integrity, for 13 years before they had to close up the salon. They're still in the business, hosting the podcast Lash Cast Podcast and their new event, LashCon, as well as some other exciting, secret ventures, but things haven't been easy for them.
In this episode, Tussanee and Paul open up about the difficulties they faced opening their salon and attempting to grow their business. They dish out all of their advice for managing employees and preventing your business from burning out.
Here are the episode highlights:
‣‣ [11:35] We talk first about Paul and Tussanee's upcoming event, LashCon.
‣‣ [19:53] Tussanee and Paul take us through the beginning of their business. Tussanee started in 2006 as a facialist, driving around in their van and giving at-home facials where she would offer free lashes on the side. This eventually grew into their salon Integrity Lash.
‣‣ [26:38] One of the biggest things Paul and Tussanee learned from their experience was that they weren't prepared to lead. They didn't have the right mindset or the tools they needed to effectively lead their employees. Here, we talk about the importance of good leadership.
‣‣ [33:13] Along with great leadership, you need to hire the right personalities. We go over hiring people and creating a team that you can have difficult conversations with.
‣‣ [41:50] Paul and Tussanee give their advice on how to be an efficient leader.
‣‣ [46:29] I ask Paul and Tussanee to open up about the pain they've felt opening a starting a business, opening a salon, hiring friends, losing friends, and losing the salon.
‣‣ [55:18] Paul acknowledges that nobody starts as an employee thinking "I want to be a bad employee. I want to be bad at my job and make things difficult until I get fired." People change and things happen over time. What's important is how you handle these changes.
‣‣ [01:01:31] While Tussanee and Paul have faced quite a few hardships since starting their salon and things haven't been easy, I ask them to share the greatest good that came from the situation.
HELP! I WANT TO BE AN EFFECTIVE LEADER AND NOT BURN OUT! (Listen Here)
Paul and Tussanee are great examples of hard work and perseverance and I'm so excited for everything that they do next! Keep up with them on Instagram right here!
You can follow me, Sheila Bella, on Instagram @realsheilabella!
Here are the links that were mentioned in the podcast!
Grow Your Gram
Online Course Workshop
FOR MY LISTENER BOSS BABES
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You can enjoy a transcript of the podcast here.
Sheila Bella:
Managing Employees; What you need to know before you get burned. It's not a secret that hiring someone is awesome as well as it is risky. Today, I have Paul and Tussanee Leubbers from LashCast podcast. Tussanee Leubbers went from selling makeup at a department store to owning her own seven figure lash studio for 13 years with her amazing husband, Paul. They have the house, the beautiful kids, the Lexus, their calendar fully booked with awesome loyal clients. And they have the amazing podcast too. Sounds like the goal of every beauty junkie, right? And then the unimaginable happened, a lawsuit from their employees that forced them to give it all up. Today, no filter on this episode, they share everything they've learned, if they would have done anything differently and what you can do to protect yourself right here on Pretty Rich Podcast.
Welcome to the Pretty Rich Podcast where every woman is the heroine of her own story. I'm your host, Sheila Bella and I built a million dollar PD business from nothing. So maybe if you listen enough, you'll start to believe that you can do it too, because if the perfect job doesn't exist, well, you can create it. If the job you want isn't hiring you, you can unapologetically hire yourself. Each episode will equip you with empowering conversations on how to grow lifestyle that's pretty rich in love, beauty, wellness, and financial wealth. I'm Sheila Bella beauty business coach, celebrity brow artist, global success speaker, author, serial entrepreneur, wife, mother, friend, daughter, and you're for ever positive beauty biz sales guru. Let's go.
Hey, you guys welcome back to Pretty Rich Podcast. It's Sheila Bella. I'm so excited to be connecting with you guys here today, and I know I say that every time, but when I turn this mic on and I know that I'm speaking to my tribe and just naming the feelings that we all have, I just think it's a beautiful thing. This podcast for me is a very intimate place to spend time in. So I just want to thank you for hanging out with me and for the awesome messages you guys send and for the reviews that you guys leave, especially. I can't tell you how much it means to me that you took time out of your busy day. I know we're all entrepreneurs here, out of your super busy day to send me confirmation that something that we've discussed on here has impacted you because I put things out there all the time, and sometimes I'm not sure. I constantly question it. As many messages as I get, I constantly question it. So thank you so much for the fuel, the reviews, and just simply nodding your head with me that we're all on the same journey, right?
Before we get to today's super important podcast, I wanted to remind you guys of the Pretty Ambitious Summit giveaway, where you can win a free VIP ticket to the Pretty Ambitious Summit. It's going to be in March in LA next year. And for those of you who haven't heard of it yet, what is this? It is like a business party with your PMU bro besties. I'm serious. It was something that I've always wanted, so I just created it. The focus of this summit is to empower female owned businesses to learn marketing, increase sales, grow your confidence, inspire your soul and network with ambitious souls in the PMU industry like yourself. Guys, this isn't your aunt Susan's quiet... Okay, I'll say it, boring conference. Okay. We're going to get low. Do kids still say that? Is that like an almost 40 thing? Whatever. Regardless, we're going to get low. And I want you to come away with actual things that you can implement immediately to increase your bookings for 2020 and beyond. So here's your chance to win a free ticket.
You guys, this giveaway is bananas, B-A-N-A-N-A-S, with over $10,000 worth in prizes. So this summit, as you guys have heard me say, it's all about collaboration over competition and I want to demonstrate to you guys, even as early as now, why that is, and this giveaway is an example of how collaboration can be so much more fun and lucrative. Work with your colleagues. People you think are your competitors, they're not. They are your teachers, they are your friends and they're probably the only ones who know what you're going through. Okay. I digress. Back to this awesome $10,000 giveaway that we've all put together. All the speakers have pitched in to put this together and it is mind blowing. One lucky winner will get a VIP ticket to the Pretty Ambitious Summit, a one year long mentorship program with me at Pretty Rich University. You will also get Market Your Beauty Biz Like a Boss, which is an online course by Shay Danielle and Alex Dietrich of PMU Society. They were just on my last podcast.
You're also going to get to take the, I Love Inc online course and Blade & Shade online course by Tina Davies. Next, you have three months of online training, plus two boxes of blades by Lexi Bowler. Okay, If you're not like a wiz at microblading by the time you guys get through these courses, then I don't know. Holy crap. Next step. You're going to get a trade secrets seminar by Emily Joy of Dollistic. How cool is that? Plus a $500 gift card from Amy of Minx Brows. And just in case you wanted to check out nanoshading, or if you do nanoshading, you wanted to brush up your skills, Permanent Beauty by Lily is going to be giving away a free pass to her online nanoshading class.
And for those of you who are in need of a new logo and you need an expert in branding to help you design it and coach you through it, you're going to get a branding, coaching and logo designed by Brow Boss Gal. And my girl, Kelly Ann is going to give away a free ticket to her conference called Wake Up to Level Up. It's going to be next fall, I believe.
And for those of you who are feeling really uncomfortable and showing your face on lives or on social media, this course Livestream Superstar by Desi Crowley is going to rev up your confidence to be able to show up boldly in your business for your business on social. Livestream Superstar online course by Desi Crowley. And celebrity makeup artist, Melissa Hibbért will be giving one lucky winner her Face Your Beauty book that just came out and A Beauty On The Go gift bag. What a generous offer! My goodness! Next up is Neeta Bhushan, we're going to give away her book, Emotional Grit. She is a powerful speaker, coach and author and I can't wait for you guys to dive in on her story. And the last thing on this giveaway, but most certainly not the least is A Tribe Called Bliss book by Pretty Ambitious Summit speaker and bestselling author Lori Harder. Isn't this amazing? All the speakers came together to make this giveaway insane.
So if you want the rules on how to enter, you got to go to Instagram. It's the only place. This is an Instagram giveaway. You got to go to Instagram, go to @realsheilabella or go to @prettyambitioussummit and check out the rules. Imagine winning all of this and a VIP ticket to the summit. So don't walk, run. The winner will be announced in just a few days, October 9th. So go, go, go. You don't even need to pause this podcast. You can just click on... If you're driving, you should pull over. You should just go to Instagram right now while listening to this podcast. Who knows? You could be the one.
And now back to today's topic with Paul and Tussanee Leubbers of LashCast Podcast, and they are also the creators of LashCon that's coming up. I'm so excited to be speaking at that event. We're here to talk about Managing Employees; What you need to know before you get burned. Dun, dun, dun. Hi, you guys. Welcome to Pretty Rich Podcast. I'm so excited to have Paul and Tussanee of LashCast Podcast here with me today. Hey, you guys, what's going on?
Paul Leubbers:
Hey.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Hello.
Sheila Bella:
I'm so excited because right before I press record, we were talking about our plans for LashCon. And I am going to release this before then. Can they still get tickets?
Paul Leubbers:
Yes, they can. They can get tickets pretty much up to, I believe the day of as long as the hotel's okay with me adding more people to the payroll, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. They'll take more money from us I'm sure for more guests. That'd be great.
Tussanee Leubbers:
So where do they go?
Paul Leubbers:
Where do they go? They go to lashcon.com or you can go to LashCast Podcast or @lashcastpodcast or @lash.con and you'll see the links from our Instagram as well as on our website and you can get all the tickets their, tickets right now, or at the highest price. I guarantee you it's still well worth. It's 10.99 now, but it's two days of classes, like eight plus hours a day and you can custom make your menu for you. So we have three classes going like in these breakout sessions so you can really go for the class that you need not to sit through a class like, "Okay, I got to sit through this one to get to the class I want to go to." You'll be able to custom make your training or your learning for that whole weekend and it's going to be amazing. And Sheila's going to be one of our speakers we have [crosstalk 00:11:18]-
Sheila Bella:
Oh ooh. And hype woman. And hype woman.
Paul Leubbers:
And hype woman, that's right. She's [crosstalk 00:11:23] crazy the opening. You'll see... Well, you just have to come and see. We won't say anything more about the opening, but it will be awesome.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. So this is your first event, right?
Paul Leubbers:
It is our first event. We've done some soirees. We called them over the last year where we got about 80 people to hang out and just party for a night and talk about lashes and all that. But this is like our official major event that's a paid event and all that. Yes.
Sheila Bella:
I love it. So what makes this different?
Paul Leubbers:
The big thing about this is that we really focus on business. In our industry, a lot of people... And this is business for anyone really. It's not just lash artists, PMU world and our world really are just totally-
Sheila Bella:
Incestuous. We're incestuous.
Paul Leubbers:
That's it. And so this is a perfect chance for people to come and learn how to improve both their business, but not just that and also their marketing. And then the third element, really that we've seen is a chance to connect with some of the specialists that you... And our industry, at least in the lash world and maybe even the PMU world, most people work by themselves. I think [inaudible 00:12:28] percent of our industry works all alone in a room by themselves, don't have any friends or they're afraid to reach out to their local friends because they're their competitors, right? And so they're their enemies. So this is a chance to come, hang out, let down your hair, meet some people, make some boss babes that you can connect with and go home with later and call when you have that hard day or celebrate when you have something to celebrate instead of doing it by yourself in your room. Now you'll have these connections. So we're going have a couple of parties in the evenings while networking opportunities and then during the day, it's all business.
And we have business coaches there like Sheila and we have strategies and their business coaching company, and then lash salon owners. So these are people who have been successfully doing it in their own lives. It's not just a bunch of theorizers who've never... don't have this background. They actually been doing the actual work. And so we're going to have them come share the information and really help lash and beauty professionals uplevel their business game so that they finally can get good control over it. Because I think for a lot of people, they are accidental business owners. They get into it and they all some one day they wake up like, "Wait, I'm also a business owner. I thought I was just doing lashes. I was just doing makeup or whatever, but now I'm actually a business owner. I have price needs and I have marketing plans. I don't know what to do." And then you look at everyone [inaudible 00:13:43] and you get jealous and you feel like it's not fair. Why do they have it easy?
Well, they don't by the way. But we hope, we'll begin to give you some tools and help you to really get focused on what you need to do and do a better job and grow as a business owner.
Sheila Bella:
I love it.
Tussanee Leubbers:
A lot of conferences tend to be about technique and the process of it. This one is specifically going to be about business, like how to solve the problems that we all face, like what's the best way to do a release form and how do you have a hard conversation with the client or a staff-
Paul Leubbers:
Or employee.
Tussanee Leubbers:
...member.
Paul Leubbers:
So like management questions or issues-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Or if it's time to hire staff. That kind of thing.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, we're going to be having class on almost anything and everything from how to price correctly so you can actually make a profit because most people just look at everyone else around them and then they charge about the same or less or more and that's not really a pricing strategy. So we're going to talk about that. We actually going to have a thing called Life After Lashings. So when people think, "Well, am I going to do lashes for 30, 40 years?" They're like, "No." So, well, what can you do? Well, we're going to have three or four people on a panel sharing how they kind of moved away from lashing into other areas of the industry and they've kind of helped grow our industry by thinking outside the box.
So we're going to have that. It's going to be cool. It's going to be really great. It doesn't matter if you're a single practitioner working by yourself, or if you have a salon of like eight girls working with you, it's going to be for each of you. There's going to be paths, tracks, classes for everyone. And we're really trying to be intentional about that.
And the big thing that we said is every speaker has to come prepared to give you three things that you can do when you go home. So when you leave, it's not just about the hype and excitement, which we need that and I know that inspiration is great. Some days we wake up and we just feel dead, don't have any motivation, but what we really want to help people walk away in this one is like a laundry list of like 20, 30 things that they could do tomorrow to implement. They're not like rocket science type changes, but real incremental changes that will improve their business, their marketing, and give them a sense of control over their business and really help them grow and become more successful. So it's going to be amazing. It's going to be [crosstalk 00:15:51]-
Sheila Bella:
Top. Top.
Paul Leubbers:
... people right now are on board to come. So as far as the LashCon conference goes, it's the largest one I've ever seen or heard of. So we're-
Sheila Bella:
Of this type. Of this type for sure, right?
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. No one's done that. Usually about a hundred people or so.
Sheila Bella:
It's amazing.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah.
Sheila Bella:
We have a lot of alignment. Good job choosing speakers by the way. You're right.
Paul Leubbers:
It was a good choice. So we're really excited about that. And by the way, everyone I know she's not saying Pretty Rich is going to be doing this. Your Pretty Rich Summit is going to be basically doing a lot of the same thing, but for the PMU-
Sheila Bella:
Similar. Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
And I think you've got other stuff going on, but I know it will be amazing too.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. I really like the idea that you have here of being able to craft your own experience. They can choose. That's awesome. So, again, go to lashcon.com for details, right?
Paul Leubbers:
That's it.
Sheila Bella:
Lashcon.com. That's awesome. So easy. Straight to the point. The LashCon. The LashCon conference. Get it. Right?
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. Took us years to think that one of up.Like, "Oh my gosh." Actually, what's funny as I went on... Like a year ago, I went online, said, you know what? I wonder if anyone's ever done lash con. Because I mean-
Sheila Bella:
Oh my God.
Paul Leubbers:
... I'm a big comic con fan and all that. So I'm like-
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
[inaudible 00:17:07] there be a lash con? And then I typed it and it was available for 500 bucks and I'm like, "Okay, that's an easy buy." So I just went on-
Sheila Bella:
Amazing.
Paul Leubbers:
... bought it for 500 bucks. I don't know who I bought it from. It's probably the person who's on Instagram right now that won't give me their Instagram handle. I had to take the lash.con and I was trying to get lash con on Instagram that I DMed that person a thousand times. They're like, "Nope, not going to get this one from me."
Sheila Bella:
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. And they don't have a conference. What are you doing? Lash con on Instagram. Everybody go message them.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. Give it up.
Sheila Bella:
So I am so excited that you guys are here. You guys are flying high, but it didn't always start that way. You guys are business owners. You have a business called Integrity Lash but you recently closed. Right?
Paul Leubbers:
Yep.
Sheila Bella:
And today's episode is all about Managing Employees; What you need to know before you get burned. My podcast titles are so morbid. I think my last one ended with or else. But yeah, it's a big topic. So before we dive into all of that for my listeners who have never heard of you before, I don't know why you guys got to go subscribe to LashCast Podcast right now. Tell us who you are.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Well, my name is Tussanee.
Paul Leubbers:
[crosstalk 00:18:37] Hello. Hi. I'm Tussanee.
Tussanee Leubbers:
I'm a recovering salon owner-
Paul Leubbers:
Salon owner. Yeah.
Sheila Bella:
A recovering salon owner. Okay.
Tussanee Leubbers:
So I've been doing lashes for-
Paul Leubbers:
Since 2005.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
14, 15 years about and we opened Integrity Lash with Tussanee by herself in 2006. It actually started with us both driving around together in a van and we would unload a bed and a makeshift facial kit that we had set up with a steamer and all that and we'd lug it into the house. Tussanee would do skincare and then afterwards she would offer them free lashes because in 2006, no one knew what eyelash extensions were. So Tussanee would give them free lashes and then over a period of a few years, she went from doing that to within a few months, we got a little storefront or a little room.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah. It was like... I called it a little cracker box. It was like 80 square feet, but I died, God heaven. This is my own space. It's just before salon suites or anything. And I was a single practitioner, got a lot of demand. Didn't know how to solve that except for hire somebody else and that's when I-
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. So about three years, two and a half, three years into it she was so busy. I mean, she was working, doing probably 10 to 14 clients a day working from like 8:00, 9:00 in the morning until sometimes midnight, six days. Pretty much would take Sundays off and was dying and that's when we finally said, "Okay, we should hire someone." And that was around 2009. And I remember talking to my dad about it. My dad's like, "You're sure you want to go down that route?"
Tussanee Leubbers:
He was not very supportive and I-
Paul Leubbers:
No.
Tussanee Leubbers:
I think he's a wise man now.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, he's very wise.
Tussanee Leubbers:
But I could be like... I was like, "Why can't you support us? Why can't... Why... Support us more."
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, because he was like once you hire people, the whole game changes. My dad actually was himself in this... worked in Silicon Valley for like 50 years and he had-
Tussanee Leubbers:
He was an electrical engineer.
Paul Leubbers:
He was an electrical engineer and he always had chances to move up. In fact, he had small management positions and he was offered vice president positions. He always turned them down because my dad liked doing engineering. He liked designing. He liked being creative. And he realized when he moved into management, into VP roles, whatever, your job is to manage people, you don't actually get to do the work that you love and live for. And so he warned Tussanee like you know what? Are you sure you would just want become a manager? Because that's what you'll become. You're not going to be really going to do lashes anymore and if that's your joy, then do lashes, but don't give up lashes to become a manager. And we just thought we could do both.
Tussanee Leubbers:
I just thought... It's like a teenager. I know you think it's going to be like this, but I'm going to show you.
Paul Leubbers:
You don't know what you're talking about.
Tussanee Leubbers:
You don't know anything.
Paul Leubbers:
You're 30 years older than me and that means you don't know anything.
Tussanee Leubbers:
You don't... Yeah. I'm invincible. I can do this thing.
Paul Leubbers:
So we just-
Sheila Bella:
And what did you learn? What did you learn? What happened? Well, first of all, let's dive into it. What happened? What is causing you to have this lens now that you're father-in-law was like the best thing ever. He was actually like Gandalf?
Tussanee Leubbers:
Right. No, it's like surveying the landscape of burn bodies and [crosstalk 00:21:59].
Paul Leubbers:
Wow. Okay. Well, basically we learned... The real hard lesson is that if you don't do things right, and you're not fully legal and compliant with HR laws, you're opening yourself up to huge exposure to where in our case, we were sued for our compliance for multiple things. The big one was unpaid breaks, but there were other small ones too that were in there. We had one person that we misunderstood the vacation laws and we didn't pay them all their vacation pay when they left and we thought we had to just pay them up to the month that they left. And it turned out, nope, you owe them for the whole year.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Well, it was because it was on the paycheck as it was accrued.
Paul Leubbers:
We're getting in the weeds there. But the idea is that we used to understand HR law and then when you fire someone and they're disgruntled, well, they start looking for ways to strike back. And that's what happened. They found a way. They went to a lawyer and the lawyer said, "If you get enough other girls on board, I'm more than willing to represent you guys." Otherwise, they would have just gone to the labor board, but when you can get six, seven people... And some of these were people that said they're our friends and that we were in good terms with, but when they were told, "Hey, I can make money." Or "Hey, this is my girl. I want to back her up even though Paul and Tuss are nice. I like them. But my girl feels really [crosstalk 00:23:11]-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Or "We really want to teach them a lesson."
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, or they want to teach us something. They felt like we had to learn some lesson. So that all said, we lost our salon because we were not in compliance and we had not really learned at times how to be good leaders too. I mean, really to be a good leader means that people will follow you. And if people aren't following you and you turn around and no one's following you, then you're not a good leader. And we had made some mistakes in our leadership style. Mainly I think for us, we realized is that we didn't... We were too nice. I mean that we didn't let people go when they had already left the company really mentally and we should have helped them get out sooner because I think them sticking around really was toxic and really hurt other people who are happy. And then all of a sudden they went from being happy to sad or angry because this toxic employee was pouring poison in their ears every day. And we just were not quick at letting people go.
I could go through the story and there's like a laundry list of people that I get to see the Domino or the Baton was being handed off from one point to the next like, "Okay, this was their first employee that went sour and if we had cut her right away..." I sometimes wonder if we had cut this one employee like four or five years ago, right away, we don't know if all this would've happened because-
Sheila Bella:
Four or five years you saw signs?
Paul Leubbers:
Oh yeah. Yeah. There's one person that tried to do a coup one summer and she was going to get everyone to leave with her and go down the street and open a salon. Thankfully they didn't do that. But she was really the beginning of the disgruntled employees. Before that we had had issues, but they weren't disgruntled like I hate you. There's just like, "I don't care. I'm kind of lazy. I'm not really interested in this work." Or "I'm just thinking a little... unfortunately, maybe not really suited for this type of business." But this person was very, very smart, very motivated, a good people person and she just basically decided that she wanted to do her own thing and she started rallying the troops to come join her and then the... That thankfully fell apart. But when we found out about that, we should have just let her go, but we didn't because we thought, "We'll win her back over and I hate firing people."
Sheila Bella:
Oh no. Oh no.
Paul Leubbers:
We want to be nice. We want to be nice. We can win her over and all that. So we...
Sheila Bella:
Oh oh. Oh oh. Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
We still had to fire her because she basically stole our clients and took them home. And when I found that out, I couldn't... That's when I found out, "Okay, if you're stealing. I'm sorry, I can't keep you around anymore."
Sheila Bella:
Yeah, oh no.
Tussanee Leubbers:
But no matter what, I don't want this to sound like we are blaming somebody else. [inaudible 00:25:36] stops with the leader. We made mistakes and we paid dearly for them and it doesn't matter what your intentions are. It really doesn't. I mean, you have to learn on the spot. You have to adapt on the fly and if you don't, it's costly. So I don't want anyone to think that we're trying to shove off blame. I mean, there are things that we could have done differently, but-
Paul Leubbers:
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, this is not the employee's fault. Our company didn't close because our employee competence, our company closed because we made bad choices. When we were faced, then they came to our face, those decisions, like are you going to basically have that difficult conversation? Are you going to let that person go who doesn't want to be in the company anymore? Are you going to do tough things that no one likes to? And no one likes firing. That is the number one worst part of the job for an owner is firing someone and then having to [inaudible 00:26:37].
Sheila Bella:
I agree.
Paul Leubbers:
We, when those choices came to us, we balked. We made a mistake, we didn't move forward, we didn't make the tough choices. And because of that, there was people in the camp who were no longer happy, who were fighting against us and we basically weren't smart enough to say, "Let's move on." And also we weren't compliant. I mean, in the end, if we were compliant, like we were last two or three years, we were fully compliant with labor law, as far as I know and we did our best to be at least, I should say. But before that, we had huge holes. In the beauty industry it's normal not to get paid breaks, but if you do not pay people for their breaks in basically California that is, you have a huge liability where you can be sued by any former employee up to three years of every missed break that you have.
Sheila Bella:
I've heard you say before that 80% of salons are not compliant.
Paul Leubbers:
I said 93% of businesses in California are not compliant.
Sheila Bella:
93% of all businesses are-
Paul Leubbers:
All businesses are out of compliance with labor law in one way or another, which pretty much means everyone's making a mistake, everyone's screwing up. And that's dangerous because it basically puts you at the mercy of your employees. Will they be kind to me when they leave or will they decide? "You know what? I think it's time for some payback." So it's a tough one and that's-
Sheila Bella:
It's painful. It's painful because I think we've all... I mean, right now, you haven't really given us the full story or the details, but I don't even really think it matters because so many of us have lived through the same thing with disgruntled employees. I think you're speaking our language. This is the stuff that people don't talk about when they get their certification for permanent makeup lashes or they graduate cosmetology school, everybody's bright eyed and bushy tailed. Nobody ever thinks that they're going to have to do this. Everybody thinks they're going to hire their best friends and have... I mean, I did. I did that actually. I hired all my best friends. I thought like, "Oh, I have this awesome business. I can pay my best friends the highest salary they've ever had." And for me, I was trying to pacify my inner child. I always craved sisters. I'm an only child and I've always craved sisters and my... I thought now, "Oh, I have money." I thought I could buy that. Silly me. Silly me.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Our intentions were good, but we didn't know at the time. And I suspect is the same for you. It's that when you go into that role like, "Okay, I'm going to hire my best friends. I'm going to have all these sisters around me." You change in their eyes. You're no longer the carefree best friend. You are the boss. And people generally don't like their bosses because they don't like being told what to do. They don't like having to be criticized if something's not right. It kind of goes against human nature.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. Yeah. It does shift the relationship. There is more tension. But by the way, I just want to say that my best friend since I was 13 years old, we still work together and it is amazing. So it can work but not everybody.
Paul Leubbers:
The one that sings all the time? Is that the-
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Paul Leubbers:
That is amazing.
Sheila Bella:
We have hard conversations all the time.
Paul Leubbers:
But see that... You guys had a solid friendship to start with and I think weaker friendships probably would crumble underneath that. And I think for us, a couple of the original people that Tussanee hired, they were actually former clients and we'd get them to the beauty school and then they'd come on staff. And I think for her, there wasn't a real deep friendship there. And so because of that, she thought she was hiring really cool, fun people. And they are, they were cool fun people-
Tussanee Leubbers:
They were great. Really great.
Paul Leubbers:
... but we didn't know how to lead and we didn't know how... And we thought if we overpaid them that they'd be loyal. We just thought that's-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah, we were nice.
Sheila Bella:
Oh my gosh, that's what I thought too.
Paul Leubbers:
We were really nice. And that's not enough for people to follow you.
Tussanee Leubbers:
No.
Paul Leubbers:
Overpaying and being nice is not a reason to follow someone. I think we were super weak leaders, especially then. We didn't know what leadership meant.
Tussanee Leubbers:
No.
Paul Leubbers:
We didn't know-
Sheila Bella:
What does it mean now? What have you learned?
Paul Leubbers:
I think it's really being as best as you can direct with people so they know where you stand and holding people accountable. A big part of leadership when you're in a company is holding people accountable to a standard. You have to decide where do you want to take your company? What type of vision do you have for your company? And once you have it and you've decided where you want to go, then you have to say, "Okay guys, this is where we're going." And I'm not just here to boss you and demand that you do it. That's not leadership. That's a boss. I'm here to walk alongside you in this journey to help you get to our goal as a team, but also I'm here to help you get to your own personal goals. I want to help you grow personally and professionally so that you can achieve what you want. Because otherwise I'm just using you. I don't want us to use you. I want you-
Sheila Bella:
Do you feel like that's the energy that you may have exuded back then?
Paul Leubbers:
I think so at times. I think we were just like all, "We're just here to help Paul build this..." Or really they'd say, "We're helping Tussanee build her business or help her build her dream." And I think we needed to see a little bit more, We're building our business. We are doing something together. And I think the last two, three years we actually got that down. The team was much more, "This is our company. We're going places. We're going to make an impact in industry." And we were. We were definitely going to do some really cool stuff. I think if our leadership style had changed and there was a much more inclusive, "We're all in it to get..." And the team started holding each other accountable more, helping each other, supporting each other-
Sheila Bella:
Love it.
Paul Leubbers:
... lifting each other up. We had a couple people in leadership roles and such, and they were helping other team members and such. So that worked a lot better and basically helping us to empower other people. I really felt like that was what leadership's about. Empowering others versus beforehand I think it was mostly us telling people what to do.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The past two years were good because people began to be equipped. They began to see Integrity Lash as a platform that they could grow. They could [crosstalk 00:32:51]-
Sheila Bella:
Through.
Tussanee Leubbers:
... goals and we changed to go on and do other things.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. I love that. And to add to that, I also don't think that that necessarily makes you foolproof because... Yeah, it's still doesn't.
Paul Leubbers:
[inaudible 00:33:12].
Sheila Bella:
I'm sorry you guys. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I mean, you could have all of those things in place and speak to your team that way and I just think humans are humans and when they're challenged or once they feel like you can't do anything more for them because you fired them, they will retaliate. And not everybody can take on difficult conversations.
Tussanee Leubbers:
No. We find that to be [inaudible 00:33:38].
Paul Leubbers:
That was always our toughest thing. And I always tell people, really if you want have employees, that's almost the number one quality. You need to be able to have difficult conversations because if you can't do it, if you can't sit down with someone face to face and go, "I'm actually really frustrated with our relationship right now. This is not working the way it should be."
Tussanee Leubbers:
"Stop yelling at me."
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. "Stop yelling at me." I'm like I'm not-
Sheila Bella:
We're not yelling.
Paul Leubbers:
By the way angry with you, yes. And I'm saying things you don't like, yes, but I'm not yelling. Yelling is a different [inaudible 00:34:06] and that's one thing I've never understood this defensive mechanism of saying don't yell at me. I've heard that at least twice in my career where I've had employee, when I'm talking pretty tough and I'm like, "Hey, we need to talk about this." "You're yelling at me." I'm like-
Tussanee Leubbers:
[inaudible 00:34:20].
Paul Leubbers:
... "Maybe that's what your dad did or something, but I'm not yelling at you. I'm just being tough on you." And I hated that. The first three, four years, I couldn't do it barely. It was always like, "Hey, I'm so sorry. I think we maybe made a mistake and we let you down." Dah, dah, dah. And I think as we got more into it would be like, "Okay, you know what? We had an agreement here." And this is something too I think as leadership I would even do more so is when people come on, you need to almost to lay out your rules of engagement. Like this is how we run our salon and this is expected of you and when you fall out of alignment with this, or when you sign on to be here, you're agreeing to these rules and these expectations. So if you fall out of alignment, my job as your boss and as your employer is to make sure you get back in line. And if you can't do that, then that's when this relationship ends.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. I've talked about how to have difficult conversations with employees and I heard this tip a long time ago and I've been using it. I always put it back on them and then I always put it... I always point to the business. Like for example, if somebody is coming in late all the time, I say like, "Hey, I have observed that you've been coming in late and this is bad for the business." Always say the business and our clients. I always say that to my staff that I'm not your boss, I guess I'm your manager, but truly our clients are the bosses of us. My clients and students are my boss. So I always tie it back to that. And then I put the solution back on them like an adult, not like a kid like, you can't do that or else... More like, "Okay, well..." And then I give them a chance to talk. Is there a reason why this is happening? And whatever they say during this time just goes in one ear and out the other, if my staff is watching, I'm sorry, but I'm not. And then just goes out the other…
And then whatever the reason is, it doesn't matter. And then I say, "Okay, okay. That makes sense. I understand. [inaudible 00:36:18] genuinely." Then I say, "Is there something that you can do to prevent this from happening?" And I'm just going to put it on them because I can't have this happen. So that solution is on you because I think taking ownership is the first part, but it's not everything, no. I love Jocko Willink's book, Extreme Ownership, but it starts with ownership, but it doesn't end there. You can't just be like, "Yep, that was my fault." That's ownership I guess. But it doesn't fix anything. You still need to solve the problem. And I think putting that on your employees, just like an adult like, "Okay, well this is for you." Empowering them. Or at least for the right people I think it will be empowering to them. But that's really all you can do. And there are things that are avoidable and things that are unavoidable. What do you guys think those things are, by the way?
Paul Leubbers:
I'll just say real quick that I did before I get to that is one of the things I really try to do first whenever I had a difficult conversation is I would open it up with a question, because they normally know what they're doing. They didn't just [inaudible 00:37:22] like, "Hey, you're late." Like, "What? I never knew I was late." No, it's usually said, I'm like, "Hey, I've noticed you've been late a lot. What's going on?" At least I want them to start thinking in their head like, "Well..." And then they'll come up with some excuse or sometimes I say, "Okay, I understand, you think that's enough reason for you to be late and I know you don't think that, but you just... Right now that's probably what's going on in your head." And I get them to at least start thinking about, because who knows? Maybe they'll come to me and say, "My mom just died." Or something that they've been really private about will come out usually at that point and they'll say, "Actually I just moved out of my house. I'm living out of my car." Or something.
Tussanee Leubbers:
"I had this terrible tragedy happened. That's a genuine tragedy."
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. Uh-huh (affirmative).
Paul Leubbers:
I want to-
Tussanee Leubbers:
[crosstalk 00:38:05] compassion.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, I want to give them that chance to share what-
Sheila Bella:
Definitely.
Paul Leubbers:
... I don't know about before I bring on like, okay, the accountability. Then once I've done the question, then I'll go, "Okay, well, thank you." And usually it wasn't anything substantial. And then I say, "Well, that said, here's our values." And then I... We had our, what we called our... I just went blank. What was it called?
Tussanee Leubbers:
Our mission statement?
Paul Leubbers:
Not our mission statement. Our list of values. Well, we had a list of values. All the [inaudible 00:38:33] I agreed to when they came on. These are the things we judge our performance by. And it's like a roadmap to success as I'll call it in our company. And so we'd say, "I'm looking at one of our values is that you're on time and-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Punctual.
Paul Leubbers:
... punctual. And you agreed to that when you came here." And like you said too, And our clients are expecting you to be on time and to be there for them. They're paying $200 for a service and you showing up five minutes late after they'd gotten here is not going to win anyone over. It's going to actually cause us stress and anxious for people.
Sheila Bella:
They already know this though.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, exactly. So I'm right now calling you out on it. And the thing is sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. And then there were times where we were softies and this is where the hard stuff is like, okay, we'll challenge you on that or they are just so not able to follow through on certain things that you really do need to let them go. And we just had a hard time doing that. We just would [inaudible 00:39:29] our time holding people's feet to the fire and say, "Okay, you keep blowing through our boundaries here and [inaudible 00:39:35] respect they're team members on this." And so we let people slide through it because we-
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
We don't want to-
Sheila Bella:
Guilty. So guilty of that too. I just knew people's personal problems and it's just really hard. Like you have a single mom or somebody who's family situation is terrible or... I had somebody who before she was working here, she was dancing on a pole and selling her body in other ways and I just could not. And just like you, just like you, yeah I feel like I kept them on too long. I let so many things slide because now at that point I was blinded by compassion.
Paul Leubbers:
But I've learned this towards the end and this changed the way we had conversations. It was a big shift for me. And that was, actually my team is relying on me to have these conversations, they need me to be tough. They need me to... They follow me because they believe Paul and Tussanee will make the tough decisions when they need to be done and they're in our best interest.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
Me being soft on someone or me allowing someone to get away with stuff actually ruined the respect that people had for us because we-
Tussanee Leubbers:
And [inaudible 00:40:53].
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, and it hurt the culture and as the protectors of the culture and protectors of the company we allowed things to slide. And then thus people looked at us went, "Eh, they're not really good leaders. I'm not going to follow them because look at what that one person is doing. They're still getting away with it." I'm all worried about the one person, but what I should've been more concerned about is the collective team of 12, 13 other people watching right now wondering is Paul and Tussanee going to do the right thing and be tough and protect the company or are they going to be weak and allow this person to continue to do whatever it was they were doing that hurt the company? And that's where we misstepped and our team members would say, "I didn't respect them because of that or I didn't like them because of this. They're nice people, but in the end they let me down because they didn't do the tough things."
And I think we didn't think for the team and what they needed instead of what the individual needed was something I really wish I had learned like eight years ago, but oh, well it took me a few years.
Sheila Bella:
Wow. So for anybody listening to this, I think that's wisdom. Yeah. From all three of us here that yeah, your team is counting on you to do the hard things. That's why they work for you. That's why they follow you. They're counting on you to protect them. They don't want to have to do that. That's why they work for you. That's why they're employees. They won't get to fire you. Right?
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. They get it [inaudible 00:42:11] so they didn't have to worry about that type of crap. Instead you sit there and you're thinking, "Oh I'm leading my team." And they're like, "Man, this guy's not doing this job." And they get discouraged or disappointed and while they may be like you, they still don't respect you. And that's-
Sheila Bella:
Right.
Paul Leubbers:
Being liked or respected are not the same thing. I think when we started, we thought [inaudible 00:42:28] and we were like, "Oh, we're liked so they must respect us." No. They can like you and actually be at the same time like, "I totally don't respect them though. They're not strong people."
Sheila Bella:
But isn't it really hard though to train somebody new and that's part of why you let it fester for so long? Because you're like, "Oh, I'm going to have to train." That's going to take you out of actively doing the art form and training someone new. And the claim of letting someone go is so... I mean, it's a whole production number, very difficult.
Tussanee Leubbers:
I agree. We made some bad decisions in the beginning. We had some debt. We had other factors that were pressing on us and so well, I would see a problem and I would say to Paul, I say, "We need to move on from this person-
Paul Leubbers:
Tuss is always very good at seeing when someone should move on. Tuss would catch it right away. Like, "Oh, I saw something. She came in today. She won't look me in the eyes." And all of a sudden...
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah. And the thing, and Paul at the time was like, "We have debt, we can't afford to lose this person right now" There were other reasons why we couldn't do that. But the thing is that we can't cannibalize the company because it was still cancer and-
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. [inaudible 00:43:49] we had cancer in the company and we said, "Well, we'll just feed it for a little longer and see how it goes." And that cancer eventually ate us and killed us.
Tussanee Leubbers:
But the reason why was because we... In the beginning, it was hard to find qualified people and I knew I had to grow them from the beginning. I have to train them. There wasn't anybody that could just step in the gap and solve the problem.
Paul Leubbers:
Our biggest issue was we set up a company with a technique that no one does in the industry. Our technique was very distinct, very different. So it wasn't like we just hire someone with some experience and say, "Oh yeah, you can do what we do." Like most salons have a very similar technique. I won't go into the technique. It's kind of boring but I'd just say we had a very distinct, very difficult technique that would take usually a new stylist about three months to learn.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah, but two years to get super proficient.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah once they hired them, we felt like they weren't good for... The first year was just like learning. But that said, we took usually three months or longer just to find someone that we liked. So it was a three month [inaudible 00:44:51] just to find an employee going through tons of resumes, interviews and such. And then after we got them, they would take another three months to get them on the floor where they are able to paying clients. So it was six months start. So for us, every time we thought about firing someone, it was like, "Oh my gosh, it's not going to be six months before we replace this person." And that's so daunting and frustrating.
Sheila Bella:
Yes.
Paul Leubbers:
We realized we had really short or made it difficult for us to hire and grow our company. If we had gone with, I'd say the standard industry standard for lashing, it was much-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Easier.
Paul Leubbers:
... easier just to hire someone off the street and then after we get through the interview process, which would still take time, but if they were... their personality, right? We just throw them on the floor and they could work it out eventually. But because of our technique being so different. I mean, everyone who joined our team was, "Oh my gosh, these are some impossible technique." I'm like, "You'll be fine, you'll get there. Don't worry be patient." And after about three months, they were proficient enough to take paying clients, but it was a long journey for people and that long process made it really scary for us to fire, but we still should have, we should have said, "You know what? We'll make do with less. We'll find a way, we'll cut our budgets, we'll save the money." Whatever it is we need to do that would have been wiser to not let fear and that's what made our decisions here. We allow fear to creep in and force us to make bad decisions.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
That was stupid. We should've said, "No, I'm not going to listen to that fear. I'm going to trust Tuss is capable. We're smart. We can be creative. We'll find a way without this person." And we just... We were afraid if we let this one person go, then three more people will quit with her and then we thought we'd have like a whole walkout or something and that too was very scary.
Sheila Bella:
I've seen that with some companies. But I want to ask you guys to speak on the pain that's involved in this. I know that there's a lot of... Yeah, there's a monetary loss and an inconvenience, but this whole thing that we're talking about is a deeply painful learning experience. And for anybody out there, who's a salon owner, who's a boss, who understands this, I just want you guys to know that we're with you. Yeah. Can you guys talk about that?
Tussanee Leubbers:
It is. Like I said earlier, when you survey the landscape and you see burning bodies and... That's not a joke.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Tussanee Leubbers:
When you invest in somebody and you put your hopes in and you make sacrifices, you never anticipating it ending with either a knife in your back or ashes in your mouth. But that is often what happens. It's not just the transaction where someone walks away and you're disappointed. I heard Dave Ramsay once talk about on his podcast, Entree Leadership. Because when people leave and that you've invested in and that you love and you care about, they leave marks on your body and he was talking figuratively.
Paul Leubbers:
We got stabbed. No, I was kidding.
Tussanee Leubbers:
No, no, no. But it's true. It's like I say to Paul all the time, it's like, I have marks on my body. I have scars. Parts that have been cut off that I invested in other people and there's no relationship there anymore and that's incredibly painful.
Paul Leubbers:
It's more like looking back at photos on my phone and looking at videos that we shot and these are people we loved and we still do to be honest. Really. Even the people who are suing us. I still wish them well. And I hope, and I think when they were here, most of them were doing great. And so that's positive and happy to hear that. But man, you still looking, but the relationship is gone. Like we're not going to be friends again. We're not going to hang out. We're not going to talk about the good old days. That's all gone. And it's because... For what? I mean, it is painful and you try and it does sap. I mean, I told Tuss now that I can see why when you meet someone in their 60s or 70s and they're angry, I know why now. Oh I get it. I get it. You get beat up in life. You get hurt, you get damaged. And thankfully I think for us, we've not allowed that to take hold and make us bitter angry people, at least not yet. I hope not.
But I can get how those burned and lost relationships over time have a toll on your life and it takes some of the joy out of the day and it takes some of the joy of your future and what you hope for, right?
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
When you're 21, you're like, "I got the whole world ahead of me and I'm going to own it and I'm going to take it." And then someone just goes, "Oh yeah?" And they punch you right in the stomach and after that happens like eight or nine times, it's hard to get up and have that same, "Yeah. I'm going to go out and I'm going to do it today. I think I can punch." You get, "Oh..." And then another... You get up. "Okay. Maybe I'll just settle for Netflix tonight." So it's painful. It's hard. And for us, I mean, if it weren't for our faith, I think we would angry.
Tussanee Leubbers:
It's an act of faith to take on the promises that God promises us so that we don't look at our mutilated bodies and [inaudible 00:50:12] it was too costly. We look at what our God has done for us and that he gave us entire life for us to live and they were promised that this isn't our eternity. And He calls us to lay down our life for another and it's sacrificial, it's costly.
Paul Leubbers:
And He says love your enemies. I won't say any of my former employees are enemies by any means. So if we're supposed to love our enemies, man, what are we supposed to do for our friends and-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Our family.
Paul Leubbers:
... our family and people that work with us, we need to love those people too. Even after everything's gone, the relationship is gone. And that gives me hope because I know God will, I think He'll give us the ability to love and to care for these people as our faith and just when [inaudible 00:51:05] the Bible. That gives us the fuel to be able to focus and do hopefully the right thing and do correct wrongs that we've done and all that. So while we're hurt and damaged and scarred, at the same time I feel like I receive so much blessings and grace and goodness towards me that I don't deserve so that I can still have hope for the future of both here and for eternity.
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah.
Sheila Bella:
I love that you guys are believers too. So to that, my parents, I don't know if I told you, my parents have always been business owners. I've seen them own several businesses and so I've seen them never work for anybody but themselves and I've seen them employ tons of people and I've seen this thing happen repeatedly. And there is that cognitive dissonance where you're like, "Okay, I was good to this person. Why am I getting the opposite in return?" And that really messes with you in a real way. But if I've learned anything is that unforgiveness is a distraction because if I let the experiences of my parents or my personal experiences to distract me or burn me or harden my heart, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the fullness of the relationships that I have now. Like my nanny growing up is still with our family. So she's been with us now for... how old I'm I? 37. About like 30 plus years. But she obviously doesn't change my diapers anymore, but my parents have a small business and she still works for them.
Sheila Bella:
And now she's good friends with our family nanny for our children. And that's what we intend to do because that's the example that I've been given. We intend to take care of Lynn and not just have her like, oh, when the kids grow up. No, we're entrepreneurs. We're going to find something for her. We take care of our own. And I guess I just think that I really have rich relationships, but yeah, experiencing stuff like this is deeply painful. And that's why when I heard your podcast about closing Integrity Lash, I was just so touched and moved. I felt like it was my story and the story of so many other people I know. It was my parents' story too. So, yeah. Thank you for being so open about your experiences. It's incredibly healing just to hear it from another body aside from your own.
Tussanee Leubbers:
I just want to thank you for that validation. You recently put a post out on Instagram saying exactly what you're saying now that just because you've been good to people doesn't mean that you're going to get that back and it was really validating to hear that. And I know that anybody who's never gone through the same kind of trial or pain that we've been talking about here understands and that's the person that I want to talk to right now. It's a very lonely place to be. A lot of people don't understand if you haven't been in that position and if you're a leader it's kind of lonely, you can't really complain to... Certain people can't hear it [inaudible 00:54:30] because oftentimes they're like, "Well, we told you. We told you [inaudible 00:54:35]." It's like you have to suffer in silence.
And I want to speak to that person that's going through a hard time. Maybe feels a little bit misunderstood by their team or somebody that they've tried to do right by, but it just didn't end up that way and they're feeling pretty wounded right now. I will say you're not alone.
Sheila Bella:
Oh yeah.
Tussanee Leubbers:
You're so not alone in this. And this is going to make you stronger. Choose the right way. Choose to keep your heart soft. You're going to get through this. This is a temporary-
Paul Leubbers:
Affliction.
Tussanee Leubbers:
... affliction. It's a momentary and temporary affliction. You're going to get through it.
Paul Leubbers:
A big thing about going into business and I always thought it was about employees, but I changed it a little bit as I got into this, I always said to her, "Hey, no employee joins your team wanting to be that bad employee." No one comes on and says, "I know I'm going to join a company and suck."
Tussanee Leubbers:
"I'm going to [inaudible 00:55:34]."
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. "I'm going to go in and I'm going to get them because I'm evil." There's no one like that. No one gets hired like that. Everyone always comes in bright tail and-
Tussanee Leubbers:
[crosstalk 00:55:45] yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
... tail like, "Yeah, I can't wait to join and I'm going to make a difference and I'm going to help people and it's going to be awesome." Looks like... I don't know if you ever saw-
Tussanee Leubbers:
SpongeBob.
Paul Leubbers:
... SpongeBob but SpongeBob was one of my favorites shows when technically growing up. And there's this episode where SpongeBob comes in and he sees the clerk behind the grocery store and he's just got this grown up beard, depressed-
Tussanee Leubbers:
Huddle effect, dead pan effect on his face.
Paul Leubbers:
And he can't barely talk. He's like, "Nah, nah."
Tussanee Leubbers:
He's like five o'clock shadow.
Paul Leubbers:
And he's like, "SpongeBob, because I remember when you used to be... It was your first day here." And he pulls out a picture of him. He's all happy with a new button, says new employee or something like that. And it's like, that's exactly what happens when we all start, the same thing's true for owners. When we hire someone, we don't hire people like I know I'm going to hire this person, destroy her life. Just hire someone because you want to make a difference. You want to help people reach their dreams. You want to help them grow. You want to help them become the best version of themselves because you think you have the opportunity for them where they can do that. And then unfortunately, human relationships are just messy. It's just messy.
And it takes grownup people that know to have grace for each other and be able to say, "You know what? I just saw you make a mistake there, but I have enough grace, I'm going to let that go. I'm going to call you out and hold you accountable, but I'm also not going to resent you and hate you or put that on the check mark is like, okay, you screwed up there."
Tussanee Leubbers:
He got mad. He wasn't patient.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, wasn't patient. Whatever it is that they come up with and over time, I always feel like there's a trust scale in your business. It's called trust. And that scale is in your favor, when you start to trust is there but over time, if you break trust, they always take one low weight and put the other side. So eventually that scale tips and then trust is gone. And I think that can happen as a team, but also wish as leaders there was more grace and mercy for the leader. I think for us, I think we over graced and over mercied our team at times. We let things get away way too much. But I just think that me, I wish I could go back and say, "Guys, we're not against you. We're really for you."
And one thing I see while we had a hard time having difficult conversations, employees even more so have a difficult conversation. I don't know how many times through the grapevine would get, "Hey, Bob was mad at you." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." So I would set up a one-on-one and sit down with the person, "Hey, let's talk." And because I'm thinking, "Okay, they'll share their problems."
Tussanee Leubbers:
She's going to unload. She's going to tell you how it is.
Paul Leubbers:
She's going to literally let you have it. Then you sit down in the meeting and she'd be like, "No, everything's fine." I'm like, "What? Really? Are you sure?"
Tussanee Leubbers:
No.
Paul Leubbers:
I wouldn't say I heard anything because I didn't want to really encourage the gossiping, but I'd be like, "Do you want to share?" And like, "No, no, no. Everything's great. Love working here. Thanks guys." And then I'm like, "Oh my gosh, we're never going to get to this."
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. That's frustrating. And that's happened to so many of us.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
[inaudible 00:58:41] and you just say, "Let's talk, let's communicate. Let's work through this." We had a saying, it was not a saying but a principle in our company, when you have something not working in the company and you have a issue somewhere, go to the person who can fix it. Don't go to your roommate or your fellow [crosstalk 00:58:58]-
Sheila Bella:
Thank you. Thank you.
Paul Leubbers:
... and talk to them about because they can't fix it.
Tussanee Leubbers:
And it burns them.
Paul Leubbers:
And it burns them. It gets them mad. Now you have two people mad, but no one's talking to the person that's causing the problem. It wasn't always like this.
Sheila Bella:
I always say that. "Well, did you talk to her? Why are you telling me?" I say this to everyone.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. And it's just human nature to want to go talk to someone, but to the person that [crosstalk 00:59:21]-
Sheila Bella:
Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
... the problem. That's just our wiring because we hate conflict. We hate trouble. But man, when we hate that, they always will bite you in the ass eventually and it's going to be your undoing. And that's what happened with us, many, many times over where there was communication going on between people that wasn't with us, it was with each other and the echo chamber got louder and louder and people get more and more angry and they weren't resolving the problem by just talking to us and fixing the problem.
Tussanee Leubbers:
And then the story can be rewritten. They can tell themselves a story and begin to change what actually happened.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. It [crosstalk 00:59:56] always.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah, to support their bias and their feelings. That's also human nature.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. You want to be validated. Right? You want to be like, "I felt I was wronged here. Will you validate me?" And that person's like, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe they did that." Or "I can't believe that Paul did that." And they're like, "Yeah, yeah, that's so bad." Instead of just saying, "Okay. You know what? I don't need to be validated. This was a wrong or maybe it was a misperception." So many times it was misperception sadly. And there were just... Assumptions were being made. And if you just go to the source, you may find out, "Oh wow. It wasn't what I thought it was. I thought he said this, but he actually meant this."
I remember one time in a team meeting, I forget... It was with one of our staff. I said something and afterwards, thankfully this person actually came to me. He was like, "Oh, I can't believe you said this." I'm like, "What? What do you mean?" She goes, "You said, blah, blah, blah, blah." I'm like, "No, I didn't say that." And then I was able to sit down. We had a good conversation. Actually one of the times where actually the person came to me, I won't go to the details, but it was beautiful because in the end she went, "Oh, okay [inaudible 01:00:55]." And he misheard me because we speak a lot of times, but we're not always communicating. Right?
Sheila Bella:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Paul Leubbers:
When you're up front, you're talking... We had our three hour team meetings and we did a lot of information downloads, we'll have fun, tune parties and prizes and all that, but we still shared a lot of information. There were times where things were not communicated. Right? And people would walk away from the meeting, not understanding what we meant and for those who came to me and usually sought more clarification, things went well. And then for the ones that didn't, unfortunately that's when things would go south, because there was no clarity. There was no understanding really going on.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. Yeah. Before we wrap, I just want to ask you, what is the biggest good that came out of this?
Paul Leubbers:
Wow.
Sheila Bella:
Take your time. Did anything make it worth it?
Paul Leubbers:
Oh yeah, absolutely. You want to go first Tuss?
Tussanee Leubbers:
The biggest good that I'm thinking about right now, it's not even in the realm of the physical. For me, it was really devastating to lose the salon. When I realized that, to the very end we had all these plans, we had a couple of buyers that were interested in it. We still weren't sure what was going to happen and we were still hoping that it was going save it, it was going to be saved. And when I realized it wasn't and I was looking at the reality, I was super, super devastated and it was a crisis for me. Was I going to meltdown? Was everything going to be completely like... This was the point where my life was just a wasteland, because all my dreams had been dashed. I'd been humbled and devastated. But it didn't happen and it didn't happen because the object of my faith was not the salon.
I recognized that the world could fall around or fall away around me and I would still be okay because [inaudible 01:03:40] in the salvation and the promises that God has for me. And I wouldn't have known that, I wouldn't have known that peace had everything that I truly loved been taken from me. It was taken from me and then I realized, "Well, I'm okay, this is a momentary affliction. I'm going to be okay because I can trust in the promises of my savior." And so when people would ask me how you feel, I would say, "It is well with my soul." Because I knew where I stood with God and I knew that my treasure was in heaven, not in things that can burn, not in things that can be... that are tangible, but my treasure was knowing that I am God's, that He is mine. And so that is what made it worth it. For me, it was the most painful test ever. And I was still dealing with it. It's still painful. Right? But it is well with my soul because God has died for me and that treasure is mine.
Paul Leubbers:
I think you... Tuss you probably remember, but the song, It's Well With My Soul, do you remember?
Tussanee Leubbers:
Yeah. It's by Horatio Spafford. It is a hymn. And it was pinned... It was right after the Chicago Fires. I think he was a pastor or minister. He had lost his son and the family was really, really reeling from that. And he lost him in the fires. So as a family holiday, they decided to go overseas to Europe and just relax. They had a couple of daughters and the wife, and he put them on the boat and sent them because he had some things that he had to wrap up. So he was going to follow the following week. While they were away he got a letter, a telegram from his wife that said the daughters have died. I'm alone, I have survived and while... Actually he received this while he was on the boat coming to visit his family.
So he realizes my children are gone and I think it was his wife is gone or something. A devastating loss. And while he was on the deck, he pins this hymn that says, while the sea billows roll, while everything falls apart, I can say that it is well with my soul because of what Jesus Christ has done for me. It is well with my soul.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah. I think that's what... That was kind of like a theme for us through this whole thing. As we looked at the loss, as we looked at the carnage and the devastation and the loss, and I think the hopeful thing was to see, wow, we survived. We're alive today and it's not... And I think it's just because of Christ and our faith and our hope for the future, that we can get up every day and continue to fight and continue to try to make a difference, to bless people through our podcasts and through other means through LashCon or whatever, these other opportunities that God's given to us. So let's take that as a gift as it really is. It's not a right. We didn't earn this. It's not like, "Okay, you are obligated to have this, or there's some sort of world you deserve it." It's like you have to go out and get it. You have to earn it. You have to fight for it. You have to do it yourself.
And so when we lost everything, it opened up new opportunities to fully put our hearts into this new stuff and I think God in His grace had already began to prepare the way for us to go in this direction. We didn't know it was going to end like this. We had thought we were going to do it at all. We're going to have the salon and we're going to have the business, we'll have the coaching, we'll have the training, we'll do 80 different things and we had hoped to do this with our team. And when the team all evaporated and the company had to go away, there's a lot of self doubt, like, "Okay, well, maybe we're just frauds. Maybe we're losers. Maybe we shouldn't do anything. Maybe we should [inaudible 01:07:40]."
Tussanee Leubbers:
Why should anybody follow us?
Paul Leubbers:
Maybe I should go and be a Uber driver. So it's like-
Tussanee Leubbers:
These are conversations we had. This is from the pit of despair.
Paul Leubbers:
Because you really begin to question everything about yourself. Like, am I just an idiot? Maybe I'm the worst salon owner ever. And I think we've had a lot of time. We've had like four months to reflect on that and we keep coming back saying, "Yeah, we did things wrong, but we weren't bad salon owners. We weren't horrible people. And just because some people got angry and were able to use the system in their advantage doesn't mean that somehow we were the worst of the worst salon owners." And I think we just found out, our faith was solidified through this whole mess and that's what really matters ultimately.
Tussanee Leubbers:
It's the treasure.
Paul Leubbers:
That's the treasure. And then new opportunities have come. And we're really [inaudible 01:08:26] about that and we're really looking to collaborate and work with other people like you and we've made new friends and we have a new community of people that we feel like we can bless and we can share our wisdom and something from some of our stupid moves. But also we did a lot of things, right? I mean, our salon grew and was doing over a million a year and was a very successful, very busy salon. We understand marketing, we understand how to customer service. We have a lot to share. And I feel like we have more opportunities now that we're no longer running a salon full time that we-
Sheila Bella:
Tell me about it. Yeah.
Paul Leubbers:
They're about [inaudible 01:08:57] people. So that's exciting for us and that's something that we feel very blessed to be part of and can't wait to dig more and do more.
Sheila Bella:
Yeah. I'm excited for you guys. And Tussanee while you were talking, I was in tears over here for those of you who can't see. This is what this podcast is about. Pretty Rich. I love that it's kind of misleading because it's like, who is this fluffy cupcake girl with her boob out, Pretty Rich Podcast? But I mean, the title is really all about the richness that is beyond this world. The stuff that's not tangible, you can't measure. And you spoke so beautifully on that and you don't see it until everything is taken away. About two weeks ago, I thought I had breast cancer. That was really scary. And the moment I found out that I didn't... Yeah, I've gotten through a lot of hard things, but I remember just a new appreciation on just being able to take a breath without pain. I was like, "Wow, this is amazing."
And it's not until all of these things are taken away that you recognize the fullness of how blessed we really are. Yeah. Thank you guys for joining us today. Where can we find you and how can we work with you?
Paul Leubbers:
All right. You can find us at... Right now we don't have a website for LashCast Podcast lane, but we have LashCon. That's one of my things. Once the LashCon's done, we'll see a lot more coming out, but we do have lashcon.com. You can go there. And @lashcastpodcast and @lash.con those are the places on Instagram you can find us, or you can always email me at [email protected]. We are really open to helping people. In fact, I just had someone DM me a question and we try our best to get back to people usually within 24 hours and respond to people and give them stuff. And just as a heads up, we will be announcing at LashCon at least three new initiatives or three new things that we're going to be launching over the next 12 months.
Sheila Bella:
Good.
Paul Leubbers:
A preview of what's to come. So want if you want to... And after we do it at LashCon, we will announce it obviously on social media and such, but there's some really cool stuff. We're having a cool event. That's going to be next March that you guys don't want to miss. That's going to be really a cool networking thing. And then we have hopefully... Yeah, we have a lot more stuff. So we'll be doing some really cool things. And again, we're going to do that without... unfortunately, the salon being gone. I never thought of that at all and my plan was to do it everything. But now without the salon, we can even focus on it more and hopefully be a better service to our industry. Really we're just here to help. We really want to help. We want to make people's lives better and help them to grow and avoid some of the problems and pitfalls that we've fallen into.
Tussanee Leubbers:
[inaudible 01:11:59] people and say, we see you. We know the pain that you're going through. You're going to make it. You're going to make it. We can sharpen you and you can sharpen us as we go through this journey.
Paul Leubbers:
Yeah, the salon owners out there, we're just going to say, we see you and we know your pain. We did it for 13 years-
Tussanee Leubbers:
13 years.
Paul Leubbers:
... and we're here to join you and help you get past all those fears, all those unknowns. We do have a lot of experience. I mean, I don't think there's really anyone, almost anyone in the salon world, lash salon world that has that 13 years of experience of building a salon like we did. And there's people who have gone further than us, for sure. But there's very few people that did for as long. So we've experienced everything. So I feel like we have so much that we can share and help people with, encourage people.
Sheila Bella:
And you're such good communicators and facilitators of transformation. Yeah. Thank you. I love you guys. Truly-
Paul Leubbers:
We love you.
Sheila Bella:
... truly, truly. We're really looking forward to LashCon.
Paul Leubbers:
[inaudible 01:12:54] awesome. Will's awesome.
Tussanee Leubbers:
[crosstalk 01:12:57] this is great.
Sheila Bella:
All right, everyone until next time.
Thank you so much for listening. It is an honor to spend time with you and be a part of your life. If you enjoyed this podcast or were impacted by this at all, please take a minute to leave us a five star review on iTunes and share it with a friend, screenshot it, post it on your stories, your feed and don't forget to tag me. I would really love to see that. My Instagram is @realsheilabella and my cohost is @officialanthea. Also let's carry on the conversation longer. Join our private Facebook group just for Pretty Rich girls. Search, Pretty Rich Podcast. Check out sheilabella.com for more information on how to get more support on beauty entrepreneur mentorship, and get going on your pretty rich lifestyle. God bless you guys. Until next time.
